Non Americans, who would you vote for?

[kriss]

Ultra topical & in my humble opinion affects us all.
Reasons for your vote are not essential, I'm not trying to stir strife :)
Citizens of the USA are of course entitled to comment.

[CJN]

Hard question. A Bush win would be a victory for the US fundies, and a Kerry win would be a victory for the muslim fundies. Both are bad alternatives, but I think that I prefer the US fundies, so I would vote Bush.

[BigMac]

Needs a third option "Neither, voting just encourages them!"

Personally I've no opinion either way, I have strong opinions on America as a country and Americans as a people and Americans as individuals but that would lead to a LONG post! ;)

[hawkdawg]

WM,
Do I discern a bit of a "diss" on Americans there? :? :o :lol:
We're not all bad, 'course-we ain't all good either.
Don't judge all Americans by the political pig sty.
I must confess-in my opinion, all politicians are-Well, less than the worth of the flesh they're made of.
Now I might get some flack here, but I have never participated in an election, and I'm 53 years old. Just didn't see any fun in the game (and I mean game, literally).
BUT, I almost voted this time.
It scares the HELL out of me to think of Kerry as the "Commander and Chief" of this country. I happen to like my freedom. I don't want the government taking care of me. That's my problem, and-my choice.
If I want medical care, it should be up to me to find it, and be responsible for the monetary compensation. If I don't have the funds to pay, well-then I ain't taking very good care of myself, am I?
The biggest fear I have right now is that Kerry will win. :cry:

[AZ Rail Rat]

Just a quick report. Polls close in Gilbert, AZ in four minutes. At ONE voting place, there are over 500 people STILL IN LINE. Considering over 400K people cast early ballots (requested by mail or they have selected places open for the last two weeks), this election will set a record.

On a personal note, here is where my vote came from. An American get's blown up in Iraq by a Muslim average more than one a day. As the father of a daughter about to be sent over there, I voted for Kerry. This was against EVERY FIBER of my Republican being and most of those fears Hawk listed.

But, if Bush stays, our boys and girls (and maybe mine) will continue to die - FACT. They "might" not with Kerry. I'm willing to take the chance with my pocketbook and cush government defense job.

I disagree a vote for Kerry is a vote for Muslim victory. Muslims have been fighting to take over the world for 1500 years. As Osama said just this week, Kerry, Bush, it does not matter. The American people have to change their position. Thing is, his religion teaches it's his way or else! Just like most religions, Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, what they say and what they "WANT" and their actions are two different things.

Bush went into Iraq because he had to finish what his father did not. WMD, how bad Saddam was, how much money Haliburton would make - NONE of these things mattered. For Bush it was PERSONAL. For families of over 1,000 Americans, Brits and the FEW others "on our side" and tens of thousands of Iraqis, it's pretty personal too.

Americans are famous for our cry for freedom and democracy for the world, no matter how many have to die to give it to them. Perhaps we need to just pull back and enter a period of isolationism, letting the world work out it's own problems and keeping strong enough to whip the shit out of anyone who wants to screw with us in our own back yard.

Finally, from a slightly different perspective, does not matter if it's a Muslim with a car bomb, a mad serial killer, a drunk driver, or just their own stupidity, when you have to bury your kid - it hurts. We live in a dangerous world. Not much chance of getting out of it alive.

[EPH]

I thought the invasion of Iraq was wrong - but I would have voted for Bush if his administration was at all competent. Iraq's a mess, no planning was done, the FBI and CIA are a mess, little or no money's been spent on home defense, the surplus is gone, no-bid contracts (if you're going to do that, at least spend the money and get the utilities back on). Abu Ghraib... 'nuff said.

I don't blame the Army or the Marines but I do blame an administration that can't properly conduct a war, can't run a peace-keeping action and WON'T TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

I voted for Kerry. Look at it this way, if he wins the Republicans will hold his feet to the fire and neither party will be able to get much done. That sounds good to me.

[BigMac]

WM,
Do I discern a bit of a "diss" on Americans there? :? :o :lol:
We're not all bad, 'course-we ain't all good either.
Don't judge all Americans by the political pig sty.
I must confess-in my opinion, all politicians are-Well, less than the worth of the flesh they're made of.
Let me make it clear, Americans as individuals are fine people, I've a few long term long-distance friends in the US that I keep in touch with.

American politicians I DO have a problem with, none of them seem "genuine" to me, but then I have a problem with ALL politicians!

America as "self appointed police force of the world" also grates on me big time! (But then, you've only had a country for a couple of hundred years so I guess it's "spoiled brat kid" time!..... JUST KIDDING!)

Anyways, like I said, if I was to explore it in full it would be a LONG post! ;) :)

[AZ Rail Rat]

IF politicians ran America, it would be one thing, but they DON'T. Our "elected" officials have not "ran" anything, perhaps from the very begining.

The first I can spot for sure as to when this started is how the biggest industrial might of the mid 1800s, yes THE RAILROADS, began to put politicians in their pockets. That lasted until the turn of the century when railroad barron control was replaced by the Rockerfellers, Carnigies and DuPonts. Then, after WWII, oil companies and defense contractors are on the strings of our puppet politicians. Today it is most of these same people, but now they own and/or control our news media too.

If you need an "across the pond" relationship, just go back in history and look at control religion (Catholic or Muslim), had over England, France, Spain, Italy and most of the middle east.

The only difference between America now and Europe centuries ago is our REAL controllers are covert and incognito and the vast majority of the American populous is dupped into the false since that what they think and do REALLY MATTERS.

[BigMac]

Ah, for religious control it's hard to beat Ireland. The Catholic church pretty much has this place under the thumb even today.

And as for countries being controlled by industry, I'm sure it's been the same in all countries since the day that "independence" is declared! :)

[hawkdawg]

Well, it seems we all agree on one thing here; Politicians ain't worth a plug nickel. :)
It seems to me that a major pre-requisite to joining the political arena is to cast out all that nasty morality (honesty, credibility, respect, etc.), and go for the Gold.
I had an experience one time, during a local mayoral election, where one of the candidates came strolling through an eatery I was having lunch at.
After sashaying around the other tables, smiling that "Politician" smile and shaking hands-promising the world, she came to our table.
Reaching out her hand, my co-worker obliged her with a reluctant, but sociable, handshake.
Then she turned to me. :twisted:
I looked up from my meal, with a less than appreciative eye, and continued eating.
She asked why I wouldn't shake her hand.
I don't remember my reply, verbatim, but it was something like this;
"Lady, I'm a blue color worker, and I get my hands pretty dirty everyday, but I just don't think I want to get my hands that dirty."
In a bit of huffy confusion, she-and her entourage, hastily left the building.
Before they got out of the door, I was surprised to hear a hearty round of applause (I do tend to speak a bit loudly :wink: ).
My meal was free. :lol:

Edit 1: I just checked the poll. I noticed Bush won-2 to 0. :lol:
I didn't vote since I'm not a non-american. :wink:

[kriss]

Just to close this down, the thread produced the dignified replies I would expect of you guys.
My own point of view is I would have voted Bush but only because there was no credible alternative.
On the point of Kerry preventing more loss of American (and other) lives in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. I don't buy it. Fanatical regimes & organisations rely on one thing to justify their existance & atrocities & to give their supporters a focus for the hatred, they need an ENEMY, Hitler used the Jews, Islamic fundamentalists use the Western culture & the USA fulfills their requirements best of all. It doesn't matter who is in the White House, they will keep attacking America, the only way this can ever end is through the use of overwhelming force & it will cost many innocent lives along the way.
It is thus & has always been so.

[PJay]

I guess a lot of the frustration in the EU about the current USA government comes down to this:

=> USA is the de-facto police of the world. Theoretical, it should be the UN. We've all seen that's not true. If the USA decides something against the will of some other country, there's nothing we can do but obey. Even if they didn't ever do that, the USA still has the power to do it, and that alone scares people.
=> Well, having a police of the world is not that bad if it is a fair police. The point is, for a lot of people and coutnries, the US doesn't represent a "fair" or "neutral" police. Just look at Israël, don't tell me the US is neutral in that country. I don't want to say Israël or Palestina is the "good" side or the "bad" side, but if you want to play police, you can't just take sides in a foreign conflict based on how many of each race live in your own country.

I really don't care about the internal politics of the USA, so, if you want every citizen to have a choice about medical healthcare, I don't really care, I just pitty the less-fortunate people in the US. But the foreign politics of the USA have an influence on a lot of the world. That's why so many foreigners have a strong opinion on the US-politics, and almost no foreigners have an opinion about the Belgian politics.

And, the amount of "industry controls the politics" in the USA is a lot higher than over here. The fund-raising for one of the candidates is simply illegal over here. It would be a scandal if ever some politican has to admit he got election-support from some company. In the USA, that's perfectly legal and common practice. If you get elected with the help of some company, you won't pass a law that hurts that company.

And on and on and on...

As a last thing: maybe all of my frustration comes down to the fact that the EU doesn't manage to get together to form an equally strong union fast enough.

And a really last thing : I would not have voted for Bush, but I don't think Kerry would have been that much better.